Grinding Away

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Grinding Away

Post  Udumbara on Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:59 am

Lately I've been hearing a lot of negative things about grinding, and frankly, I just don't understand it. In my opinion, people use the word without understanding what it really means, merely jumping on the bandwagon of forum users who coined the term relating to MMOs a decade ago. In any RPG your character grows, defined by "levels" or new abilities, with experience. This experience usually comes from fighting mobs, killing them over and over again, which is how the term originated. People gripe about this, often saying they would rather receive experience from quests or crafting. However, what do most quests in MMOs require you to do? That's right ... kill more mobs. What does crafting normally involve? Repetitively farming resources, or looking for certain materials by doing what? Killing me more mobs. And let's move away from the RPG genre and look at an FPS. What do you do? Kill thousands of things, over and over and over, doing the same thing, only with a variety of guns. Yet for some reason, all this is okay, because it's not "grinding." A wolf is still a wolf, even in a sheep's skin. I believe there is no such thing as a "grind." I've said before, what makes a great MMO is not the graphics, the story, the characters, or whatever new features are introduced to fool everyone into thinking that they're not "grinding," a great MMO is defined by the people you play with.
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Re: Grinding Away

Post  Nico Gaborik on Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:07 am

You just smoke a joint?

lol naw I agree, MMO are better when you have friends
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Re: Grinding Away

Post  Beadle on Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:28 pm

Don't really agree with this for FPS games, especially multiplayer. IN MMO's or whatever a mob does the same thing each time and you kill it the same way each time, however, with competitive FPS it's far more skill based and also about out thinking an opponent, finding the right counter for their class or even beating them at their own game. The single player is alot of scripted battles following a path and usually consisting of a variety of gameplay styles, e.g. a tank level, puzzle levels, in order to finally complete the game. You can't really finish an MMO, especially if they keep releasing new content.
There is some measure of repetitiveness, especially with games like L4D and I do agree with the point about having a better experience depending on who you play with, this can also be seen with L4D, a good team or even a bad bunch of friends will have more fun.
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Re: Grinding Away

Post  Rusic Terron on Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:21 pm

Beadle wrote:with competitive FPS it's far more skill based and also about out thinking an opponent, finding the right counter for their class or even beating them at their own game.
I agree and I also think TOR will be alot like this, having to think strategically (using cover, and other soon to be announced ability's) instead of just point and click :)
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Re: Grinding Away

Post  Gatho on Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:43 pm

Friendship is indeed a thing that makes playing games so much more fun. However it can't keep at least me from leaving after a while if I the game lacks overall, like if grinding is a too big of a part of the game. And what do I define as grinding? If I have to do a particular thing long enough to get tired of it I see it as grinding. That includes killing mobs for loot, credits, crafting, repeating quests like dailies, etc.

All and all to have really fun in a game and not just get enough of it to stick around, you need all the parts shining in the game; PvP, PvE, story, characters, bit of the graphics, challenge, etc... And the thing that we have to fix for ourselves, someone to play with.
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Re: Grinding Away

Post  Quinlan Sa'athis on Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:20 am

Beadle wrote:Don't really agree with this for FPS games, especially multiplayer. IN MMO's or whatever a mob does the same thing each time and you kill it the same way each time, however

This is a gross simplification.
Most MMO's rely on the old DnD dice system or a variation of it, one mob might resist your attacks due to its roll and be very hard to kill, the next one might not roll so good and you take it out easily, you have to adjust your tactics on the fly to match what is working at the time and what is not. So while you can develop tactics and methods they will not always work.

In a FPS once you have the formula that is it, nothing changes there are no dice rolls no randomness.

Take AoC for example I have 5 basic attacks, upper right, middle, upper left, lower right, lower left. If I use a upper left and that area is shielded then I do sweet FA damage, however if I saw this and changed to a upper right where there is no shield then my attack hits for full force. Now combos are a required series of attacks regardless of the shield so sometimes a combo will get lucky and hit unshielded areas for devastating damage and other times medium damage as it hits the shielded areas. You have to adjust your next combo to account for that.

FPS are point and shoot at never changing mobs, MMO require you to think and change things around constantly as its never the same one day to the next, one quest to the next or one mob to the next.

On to the topic.

Grinding is defined by most people as the killing of a large number of mobs for the experience of killing the mobs not the quest experience that relates to kill X of X for X which is in all cases vastly superior experience to the killing itself.
Once you run out of quests then its called a grind, as it takes longer to accomplish and sometimes feels like work, you may also encounter a "mini-grind" between questing levels for instance a lot of MMO's have trouble in the first 5 of the last 10 levels. You will say level to 70 and have nothing left to do in your current area, move to the next area and find its around 72 to start at this point you have to fill in those levels with something to bring you to the point where you can do the content. There is a reason for this of course, it is to encourage people to group up and if you are a solo'er like me that can be frustrating.

I hate the word grind, I do not think it belongs in most MMO's only very badly designed ones.
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Re: Grinding Away

Post  Udumbara on Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:51 am

I love FPS, don't get me wrong, I was just pointing out the repetitiveness of killing one thing after another. I enjoy it ... it never gets old for me, even when doing it in an MMO. Whether it's masked as a quest or not, killing one thing after another is going to be the only way you can improve your character effectively in any MMO. This thing with ToR and the taking cover isn't going to make it any different than other MMOs. The places you can go are predefined and highlighted in yellow for God's sake! Pretty straight forward, though it adds a new feel, which is good. Fact is we will all have to spend the time killing one thing after another, whether it's called a quest or not, and we shouldn't gripe about it. I hate the word 'grind' ... it's used almost as much as 'lag' is for an excuse. As long as we have a chat window, I'm happy!
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Re: Grinding Away

Post  Arashi Storm on Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:49 am

It's all about the guild and community you create. After the NGE hit SWG the game flat out sucked. After time it has become a decent game again, but right after the changes were first implemented it was horrible. I had to quit just to express my feelings over the changes and try to convince SOE to role it back. Unfortunately it didn't work.

But I went back to the game because I missed the people and went back to hang out with them. It didn't matter what we did in game.
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Re: Grinding Away

Post  Gatho on Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:01 pm

Quinlan Sa'athis wrote:
Beadle wrote:Don't really agree with this for FPS games, especially multiplayer. IN MMO's or whatever a mob does the same thing each time and you kill it the same way each time, however

This is a gross simplification.
Most MMO's rely on the old DnD dice system or a variation of it, one mob might resist your attacks due to its roll and be very hard to kill, the next one might not roll so good and you take it out easily, you have to adjust your tactics on the fly to match what is working at the time and what is not. So while you can develop tactics and methods they will not always work.

In a FPS once you have the formula that is it, nothing changes there are no dice rolls no randomness.

Take AoC for example I have 5 basic attacks, upper right, middle, upper left, lower right, lower left. If I use a upper left and that area is shielded then I do sweet FA damage, however if I saw this and changed to a upper right where there is no shield then my attack hits for full force. Now combos are a required series of attacks regardless of the shield so sometimes a combo will get lucky and hit unshielded areas for devastating damage and other times medium damage as it hits the shielded areas. You have to adjust your next combo to account for that.

FPS are point and shoot at never changing mobs, MMO require you to think and change things around constantly as its never the same one day to the next, one quest to the next or one mob to the next.

You use the exact same gross simplification of FPS:s; Of course there are boring and exciting combat-moments in both MMO:s and FPS:s.
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Re: Grinding Away

Post  Quinlan Sa'athis on Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:08 am

I don't believe I have.

Take a common FPS, Half Life.
If I hit one of those things with the stick it will die.
The one next to it will die in exactly the same amount of hits because there are no resistances, each mob has the same hit points and each hit does the same damage.
It does not matter what weapon you choose the same amount of hits on one creature of the same type will be required to kill it, the only variation to this is the head-shot which we all know is a insta-kill on most, you shoot it in the head and it dies just like the next one as long as the head-shot mechanic fires.

A game like Mass Effect is NOT a FPS for this situation, while it can be played in FPS mode it is more of a RPG with rolls, damage types and the like.
Its not the fact that you see a walking gun muzzle that defines a FPS, its the style the game is made in that does it.

Now I have not played a recent FPS, so someone answer this for me, a fairly new one is Crysis (I think), does it take the same amount of bullets to kill one guy as it does to kill the next of the same mob type?
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Re: Grinding Away

Post  Kevlar on Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:34 am

I think everyone is being a bit harsh on their respective opposing genre, I like all types of games, including FPS's. And while in general I disagree with Quin's point of view I do acknowledge there are plenty of FPS's that feel purely like grinding.

For pure example Doom 3 (Enter a room, monsters spawn in the next room and previous room, clear room, rinse repeat.) While the atmosphere was awesome, that game play got old fast.

Most FPS's these days I play purely for Multiplayer, like CoD4 and such. and while I agree fps's that are repetitive get boring fast, I disagree that all fps are a constant grind to head shot people.
In single player most good fps require you to accomplish some task in a set or sandboxed environment, how you go about it is what makes an FPS fun.
You have to use the arsenal at your disposal, your innate skills at fps and your awareness and understanding of your environment for cover and vantage.

That in multiplayer is especially more true, as you have to rely more on intelligence and cunning to out think your enemies traps and ambushes, your precision at micro aiming, your understanding and expertise at using the weapon you are holding, its flaws and its advantages, not to mention other things like teamwork, moral etc etc etc.

In the end, Gaming is a very complex business. I won't hope everyone will agree on their likes and dislikes, its not possible.

Also to get back to the original topic of grinding, usually quests in MMO's have set tasks, like head to this place and kill x amount of guys then kill this boss. While it might not be obvious, you have to kill another amount of guys to get to the boss, or the object whatever.

That is fine by me, what I term grinding is the repetitive killing of mobs for no other reason then getting xp.

Udu, you ask me how is this different from farming mobs for resources or harvesting?
The answer is, it isn't.
I can stand it for a while, but I get sick of it fast and grinding with no alternative is one thing that will put me off a game fast.
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Re: Grinding Away

Post  Beadle on Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:43 pm

Quinlan Sa'athis wrote:
Take a common FPS, Half Life.
If I hit one of those things with the stick it will die.
The one next to it will die in exactly the same amount of hits because there are no resistances, each mob has the same hit points and each hit does the same damage.
You have to have the skill to hit the thing, they jump around quite a bit. MMO's (or at least WoW) you walk up to creature stop moving press buttons and the creature dies...

Quinlan Sa'athis wrote:It does not matter what weapon you choose the same amount of hits on one creature of the same type will be required to kill it, the only variation to this is the head-shot which we all know is a insta-kill on most, you shoot it in the head and it dies just like the next one as long as the head-shot mechanic fires.
In games such as counterstrike, different body parts take different amounts of damage, and this varies on the same body part even with the same gun. A few examples, I have been 1-hit in the back with an ak-47, on another occassion it has taken several hits to die from the same weapon. If you want to see damage pop up the console.
Headshots are more like crits than insta-kill. In CS and COD4 I have hit people in the head and they have failed to die to my great dissatisfaction (CS console says I hit the head but didn't do enough damage)

Also, games like COD4 are removing a health bar/set amount of health. when taking damage the screen will quickly turn red and you hear heavy breathing, however if you stop taking damage over time the screen(and breathing) will return to normal.

Quinlan Sa'athis wrote:
Now I have not played a recent FPS, so someone answer this for me, a fairly new one is Crysis (I think), does it take the same amount of bullets to kill one guy as it does to kill the next of the same mob type?
I do recall in Crysis that vs. a specific alien unit it took the same amount of shots from a certain weapon to bring them down each time, not sure about other units and it's been a while since I played but I think there were some units with impenetrable armour, so you had to get the gaps, this is true at least in Halo vs. Hunters.

Kev, I agree with your definition of grind.
Quests of go to this place and kill x of this unit also felt like grind to me although I know that technically they aren't. This is probably what put me off the game.
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Re: Grinding Away

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